67 comments:
AviMay 15, 2014 at 7:20 AMIt saddens me, but does not surprise me. I believe that Charedi society is xenophobic and paranoid delusional. They are afraid of outsiders and feel that everyone is out to get them. You can't reason with such people. Lock them up and/or medicate them. Don't bother trying to fix them.ReplyRepliesDan GambieraMay 15, 2014 at 8:30 AMThose delusions could be self-fulfilling. If you start by demanding a living and refuse to shoulder the burdens of citizenship and end by preaching treason and murder people will hate you. If they keep this up, especially if their terrorism rises from arson and assault to murder and rebellion, they may yet see every Jew's hand raised against them. And they will have nobody to blame but themselvesReplyRabbi SedleyMay 15, 2014 at 7:39 AMIt may be my computer, or something, but the link to the daf yomi review website is not working. Can you post a direct link to the shiur? Or has the link been taken down already? (In which case, is it possible to repost it somewhere - logistically and halakhically)?ReplyBen WaxmanMay 15, 2014 at 7:40 AMso why hasn't anyone sent this link to the police, to reshet bet, to arutz 2? they, especially the latter, would eat this up?ReplyDan GambieraMay 15, 2014 at 8:26 AMSaddening, sickening, but not surprising. These people do not deserve to live in Eretz Yisrael. They are traitors inciting murder of fellow Jews and sedition. The least they deserve is exile, confiscation of all their goods and the same demolition of their homes that Israel visits on Arab terrorists.ReplyRepliesNatan SlifkinMay 15, 2014 at 8:27 AMDon't make the same mistake of extremist rhetoric.ReplyElon WeintraubMay 15, 2014 at 8:35 AM"לָמָּה תַרְאֵנִי אָוֶן וְעָמָל תַּבִּיט וְשֹׁד וְחָמָס לְנֶגְדִּי וַיְהִי רִיב וּמָדוֹן יִשָּׂא."I don't know what to say. What has become of us?ReplyAlfredMay 15, 2014 at 8:40 AMThe lecture can be found at:https://mega.co.nz/#!voZlnAoY!G2t4PufKfNnIhGQ2L64RpPODtkec53pXFxFfMUWFKNkReplyRepliesmaskilMay 15, 2014 at 11:59 AMthank you the other link seems to have been take downReplyshlomo zalmanMay 15, 2014 at 8:42 AMNot surprising at all, as I had mentioned a few weeks ago regarding Rabbi Elya Weintraub's vitreolic rhetoric during "Oferet Yetzukah".The silver lining is that now I understand fully the famous chazal "halachah Eisav sonei es yaakov" Eisav is a goy, how is it possible that a goy would observe a halachah?But now I understand. I am a Jew and I am Eisav.ReplyShades of GrayMay 15, 2014 at 8:54 AMWhile I am disturbed by the language quoted and the implications for chinuch, consider this analogy from a 2007 article by R. Yitzchak Adlerstein:“A question arose about John Chrysostom, the fourth century Church Father who put the charge of deicide on the map, and whose vitriol against Jews was surpassed by none, and embraced for centuries thereafter, including by the Nazis. Chrysostom remains a Saint in the Church, and many Jews get unhinged by the mention of his name.The priest, however, was completely unfazed by the question, and calmly related that in the fourth century the Church was fighing for survival, and felt very pressured by Judaism, and therefore used language and methods that contemporary Christians completely reject. Essentially, he said, “that’s the way we once behaved, regrettably. We’ve moved on since then.” What’s good for the goose is good for the gandz. Mutatis mutandis, the disparaging remarks – if in fact directed against Yeshu – must be understood in the context of struggle between mainstream Judaism and early Jewish-Christians.”(Feldman’s Folly (Part One)”, Cross Currents, July 27th, 2007)ReplyRepliesAvi ShevinMay 15, 2014 at 9:10 AMThe difference is, the Church admits that they acted poorly and that they have regrets. Charedim, despite having this example, choose not to learn the lesson.NachumMay 15, 2014 at 12:30 PMThe Christians' survival wsn't threatened by Jews in the 4th Century, and Charedim's survival is not challenged now. End of story.ReplymonikerMay 15, 2014 at 9:22 AMIt's incitement to violence. It's illegal. Report it to the police.ReplyYoel BMay 15, 2014 at 10:06 AMBoko Haram, ביכער און יפאָנע אסור....At least so far, the "nice, down to earth" people don't have swords. Oh, and how do you translate "just sayin' " into Yeshivish?ReplyMichael SedleyMay 15, 2014 at 10:22 AMI don't get it, the Charedim are protesting being drafted into army, and want to establish their own army (with swords) to show how opposed to armies they are - they won't fight to defend their lives (and the lives of those around them), but they think that it is OK to fight to defend their right not to fight?ReplyRepliesJoe in AustraliaMay 15, 2014 at 10:33 AMI have the same problem. I suppose that the Rav is OK with fighting as long as nobody is forced to do it? But if it's a milchemes mitzva ...Natan SlifkinMay 15, 2014 at 10:38 AMhttp://www.rationalistjudaism.com/2014/02/going-to-fight-rather-than-going-to.htmlReplyYaakovMay 15, 2014 at 10:31 AMThe problem is not just "the Charedim" or Rav Shteinman: it's that this shiur was given in the most mainstream of Charedi yeshivos to moderate Charedi chutznik yeshiva bochurim from regular chutznik Charedi (or even Modern Orthodox) families. Do parents of the impressionable young men in this shiur know what sort of education their sons are being given? Do the donors to Mir yeshiva condone this sort of rhetoric?Replywhere is itMay 15, 2014 at 10:41 AMI can't get access to the talk on either link. Can anyone help before it gets pulled down? Thank you.ReplyRepliesPloniMay 15, 2014 at 10:43 AMThe second link works. Try again: https://mega.co.nz/#!voZlnAoY!G2t4PufKfNnIhGQ2L64RpPODtkec53pXFxFfMUWFKNkBen WaxmanMay 15, 2014 at 10:48 AMi put it on dropbox:https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/13066250/kaplan/022-5774-tzav.mp3ReplyYossi BaumolMay 15, 2014 at 10:48 AMWhy you reject everything this Kaplan says, yet believe his quotes from Rav Shteinman is beyond me. I don't think that even Rav Shteinman's protaganist Rav Auerbach would say these horrible things. Rav Shteinman, who gave the original thumbs up to the Nachal Charedi has been attacked verbally and even physically for being "too moderate". When they planned the big demonstration, Rav Shteinman refused to back it unless it was a "prayer meeting" rather than a demonstration against the government. His behavior has been very consistent with an approach Rav Kook once described: When there are no great Torah leaders big enough to make a "horaat sha'ah", the change comes from below. While writing against what this Kaplan said is certainly a mitzvah, it is very wrong to accept his ignorant loshon hora about Rav Shteinman and even use Rav Shteinman's picture. Are we descending to their level?ReplyRepliesNatan SlifkinMay 15, 2014 at 10:50 AMהרב שטיינמן נגד הממשלה: יימח שמם, שירדו לגיהנוםמנהיג הציבור החרדי-ליטאי שובר את הכלים בהתבטאות קיצונית נגד הממשלה: ”שנזכה בקרוב שכל אלה יירדו לגיהינום ויגיע להם כל מיני צרות“ http://www.nrg.co.il/online/11/ART2/566/959.htmlYehudah P.May 15, 2014 at 2:51 PMBut that quote of Rav Steinman doesn't call for שפיכות דמים, though, just for Divine retribution.(I'm not saying that it's all right to do that, either. Just that this is a whole different level, to get an impressionable 5 year old boy to want to attack other Jews.)I remember a recent story of a particular Admur here who chastised his chassidim for throwing rocks at passing cars on Shabbos. He said something to the effect that anyone that they'll hit with a rock, will never come to keep Shabbos as a result.G*3May 15, 2014 at 4:51 PMDoes it really matter what R' Steinman said? A maggid shiur in the Mir told his students he thought it was great that his five-year-old wants to murder people with a hammer!NachumMay 15, 2014 at 5:31 PMYehudah: So basically it's OK to throw rocks so long as it's not counterproductive? I can believe he said it, because you seem to believe it to, but that's kind of shocking. Don't charedim have a moral sense that can be appealed to, as in "It's wrong to throw rocks. Period."ReplyYaakovMay 15, 2014 at 10:53 AMYossi - Rav Shteinman has said similar things in the past. I think it's almost a mistake to focus on whether he said it or not - the point is that this incitement is being conducted by the most popular (numbers-wise) English-speaking maggid shiur in Israel, in an utterly mainstream yeshiva, that is highly regarded even among many non-Charedim.ReplyY. Ben-DavidMay 15, 2014 at 12:46 PMI suggest we remain calm. No ideology that denies the reality that everyone sees around them can last for long. Recent history has repeatedly shown this, and in fact is the reason that most Jews abandoned religious observance in the late 19th and 20th centuries due to the fact that the Judaism they were raised with was unable to face the radical changes and challenges of that era.The fact that such extreme rhetoric is used now indicates that their leadership feels under extreme pressure and that they are going to lose the next generation. It appears that they believe that speaking in such extreme terms is going to motivate their students to think like them somehow. My basic feeling is that it won't work and most won't take it seriously. Our job (i.e. those of us who support Rationalist Judaism and agree that the Jews are a people and the Torah is our constitution instead of viewing it merely as a "religion" or ideological clique that rejects all those who don't conform) is to provide a safety net to provide a Torah alternative to those who are going to flee from such an inflamed, paranoid, disconnected world.ReplyMoshe David TokayerMay 15, 2014 at 12:55 PMhttp://www.nrg.co.il/online/11/ART2/566/959.htmlFrom the end of the article that R' Slifkin quotes above:בימינו אשר זרע עמלק מתגברים מאוד אצלנו והדבר ברור כי הוא מעשה שטן, העצה האמיתית היא להילחם נגדם בזרוע ממש, מסירות נפש להריגה", אמר הרב שטיינמן בשיעור שהעביר בביתו בשבוע שעבר, במהלכו הסביר כי הכוונה למלחמה בעמלק היא דרך חיזוק לימוד התורה. Nothing here about swords and killing anyone. He says that the way to fight the war against "Amalek" is by learning more intensively.ReplyRepliesYechielMay 15, 2014 at 4:35 PMHow does that square with "זרוע ממש" and "מסירות נפש להריגה"?Or,He keeps using that word. I don't think it means what he thinks it means.ReplyBaal Ha BossMay 15, 2014 at 1:31 PMI personally am horrified by this rhetoric.However, how do we reconcile our attitude with the Maamar Chazal 'Godol Hamachtio Yosair Min Hahorgo'? If the Israeli Charedim really feel the Zionists are hellbent on being Machti them, this might explain their attitude towards them (albeit not the language, but they have always been given to dramatics).ReplySolomonMay 15, 2014 at 1:59 PMThe indoctrination of an 5 year old with murderous desires is as abhorrent and evil as one can go. It is way to close to the other nearby enemies of Israel and their "Pioneers of Tomorrow" TV show. Can he get further from G-d? (Isaiah 1:15) וּבְפָרִשְׂכֶם כַּפֵּיכֶם, אַעְלִים עֵינַי מִכֶּםגַּם כִּי-תַרְבּוּ תְפִלָּה, אֵינֶנִּי שֹׁמֵעַ: יְדֵיכֶם, דָּמִים מָלֵאוּ.Replyshlomo zalmanMay 15, 2014 at 2:30 PMI listened to the tape, and these awful statements looked worse on paper than they were to the ear. The shmuess was at a sixth grade level, devoid of any insight or demonstration of deep thought, much less creative thinking.It was probably a typical shmuess, though I can't prove that. It's content and message was mostly rubbish and probably not very effective. On another level, it was amusing to see that Rabbi Kaplan thought it important to not only show us the poor chinuch he gives his children, but also that his taxi driver is far superior to him in social intelligence.ReplyRepliesSolomonMay 15, 2014 at 3:29 PMI disagree with your analysis. It is precisely the issues of 1) his position as a popular educator, 2) 6th grade intelligence that works for his audience and 3) his indoctrinating his child that make the comments so dangerous and his act of saying them an evil act.Replyani yehudi/tMay 15, 2014 at 2:57 PM“Meharsayich u’macharivayich mimech yetzeu”Where is OUR tzeakah gedolah u'marah?! Hashem Yishmor!1. If only this could be the straw that breaks the camel’s back. May all those still hanging on to, and making excuses for, the chareidi world we grew up in, and partially inhabit, open our eyes and begin to revolutionize the system. (Tiny example. What if Americans who don’t subscribe to this view remove their sons from Mir Yeshiva in response?) 2. I’m curious Rabbi Slifkin, whether you, or others in “normal” Torah leadership, have ever gone to Rav Shteinman to discuss these things. (Personally, my naïveté has me wanting to head to bais gadol hador, lehitchanen about the real anshei tzar ve’oyev she’mevakshim lehashmid ulabed et kol ha’Yehudim.)3. BTW… For any interested. Rav Chaim Soloveitchik will be speaking tonight, at Beit Avi Chai in Yerushalayim, on the topic of “Daas Torah Revisited.”ReplyHhhmMay 15, 2014 at 3:36 PMObviously this shmuz is nauseating, but I'm sorry, le'toeles it must be pointed out that whilst Rav Nissan Kaplan may be nice and down to earth on a personal level, his shmuessen are well known for the overblown rhetoric. He often tells the 'inspiring' story of Rav Eliyah Lopian davening that his own son should die before he disembarks the boat to America to become not frum (yes - his prayers were answered and the boat sank - hooray!), and how 1 minute of personal Torah learning is worth thousands of times more than the merit of supporting all the hospitals, kollelim, and chessed organizations forever, combined.Your average Chareidi Rebbi/Mashgiach doesn't quite talk this way, and people still 'generally dismiss him as being not serious'.ReplyRepliesBorisMay 15, 2014 at 4:13 PMBut the whole point of his shmuess is that it is Amalekite to claim that this is not seriously comparable to killing our other enemies!hhhmMay 15, 2014 at 4:52 PMSure, he is badly wrong and irresponsible. But my point is that this is overblown rhetoric, and it is wrong to present this as some type of transformation from rhetoric into genuine action, coming from a moderate. He is not seriously contemplating or advocating murder (although his son may be).NachumMay 15, 2014 at 5:35 PMI'm disturbed that his son is handling muktza on Shabbat. :-)One note rings false: A hammer in a Jewish home? Don't these people know the works of R' Yaakov Maza (Jackie Mason)?ReplyMighty Garnel IronheartMay 15, 2014 at 3:41 PMTo once again quote the eminently quotable Rav Eliashiv, zt"l, "If you didn't hear it directly from me then don't assume I said it."ReplyShlomoMay 15, 2014 at 3:42 PMRav Shteinman is 100 years old.Rav Nissan Kaplan is perhaps 45.The boys listening to Rav Nissan are perhaps 21-22.Most striking to me is not what a 100-year-old man would say, but what a 45-year-old would find reasonable.So reasonable and so wise that he would not only say it over to his 5-year-old, but to a random taxi driver.And more striking than that is that 21-22 year-old Americans from normal homes would find it reasonable as well.And more striking than that-- and more scary is that the infantile level of this shiur (in general) is considered just about right by these 21-22 year-old attendees.These are America's future ba'alei batim.Hashem Yishmor.ReplyRepliesAnonymousMay 15, 2014 at 4:47 PMCalm down. Just because they're in the class, doesn't mean they accept what the teacher says. Every week the rabbi of my shul gets up and says narrishkeit, which people laugh about afterwards in the Kiddush club. (22 year olds, especially those reared in the argumentative world of orthodox Judaism, don't just blindly accept everything they're told.) If there's one true thing Obama ever said, its that you can be part of a church and still not agree with what the Pasteur says.By the way, I didn't listen to the shiur, but somebody above did, and said it looks a lot worse on paper. I'm sure that's true. Most things look far worse on paper than in actual live oral context.WazerReplygroinemMay 15, 2014 at 4:09 PMThere is a context here that seems to be missing. When the reports if communist anti-religious activities reached the Chofetz Chaim, with the yevsektzia organization of secular jews, purporting to improving the lot of their fellow Jews, oppressing anyone who tried to teach or practise Judaism, the Chofetz Chaim said "We made a mistake. When the communists started fighting the Torah we should have gone against them with a physical fight. We may have been killed, but the mesiras nefesh would have weakened their strength. When Haman tried to kill us we prayed for salvation , but when the Greeks came to shmad us we fought physically."That was not meant or taken practically (there is a famous story repeated in yeshivos about the Talmid who told the Chofetz Chaim 'let's go' but was not taken seriously) , and Rav Shteinman was paraphrasing that sentiment.Of course, someone who cannot fathom why Rav Shteinman could legitimately consider this a gezeiras shmad may find the connection disingenuous, but a person of his stature deserves some benefit of the doubt that he is absolutely serious.ReplyRepliesNachumMay 15, 2014 at 5:41 PMPerhaps because it's pretty obvious to anyone clear headed that this *isn't* a time of shmad, and a man supposedly as wise and connected and R' Shteinman should realize that?ReplyMenachem LipkinMay 15, 2014 at 4:14 PMWhether or what R. Steinman said is a separate issue. Kaplan was advocating murder, extolling the concept and was proud of his child's desire to do so.ReplyCarolMay 15, 2014 at 4:15 PMCould it be that we ourselves are responsible for anti-Semitism? Transplant chareidi and Jewish financiers to Europe and why wouldn't they be hated? How was Abarbanel different from Rubin, Geitner or Sommers. If the Jews behaved in Europe like the charedim behave today in Israel and US need we wonder? If I, coming from Russia, share Eastern European hatred for gypsies and think that no country should keep that parasitic and criminal element, maybe their hatred for Jews is justified? Read an excellent book 'Beyond Hitler's Grasp: The Heroic Rescue of Bulgaria's Jews' byMichael Bar-Zohar. The Bulgarian government's refusal to hand over its Jets was articulated by the king, himself an ethnic German: 'They are just like us, they serve in the army and work in trades. They are Spanish Jews and are different from the Ashkenazim of Eastern Europe'. And this is from a country that hates gypsies and is still trying to get rid of them.Zionism understood this and tried to create a new normal Jew and human being.ReplyRepliesNachumMay 15, 2014 at 5:40 PMGeitner isn't Jewish.Hitler did blame his anti-Semitism on charedim, but I don't believe him.Replyslogans by slonaginMay 15, 2014 at 4:48 PMAt least we can count on saychaldik cab driversReplyG*3May 15, 2014 at 4:59 PMI have a sword. And my kids know how upset I would be if they ever suggested hurting someone.I’m trying to wrap my mind around how the image of a five-year-old beating someone to death with a hammer could make someone think, “So cute! What a good boy!”Even granting that the government really were Nazis, and it were necessary to violently oppose them, that would be a deeply unfortunate reality from which children should be sheltered. The image of a little boy attacking an SS officer is sad. For a child to be put in a position where he has to kill to survive is horrific. It’s not cute.> We must not have any doubt!That’s fundamentalism in a nutshell. Absolute certainty in the rightness of a cause, with no room for doubt.Doubt is a good thing. It keeps us from being so certain we’re right that we encourage innocent children to murder people.ReplyIsaac RichterMay 15, 2014 at 5:17 PMR' Natan,I see groinem beat me to it, but here is my response:Rav Shteinman was referring to a famous question brought in Koveitz Maamarim; historically, when the Jews faced physical persecution the response has been religious in nature i.e. on Purim, when the danger was extermination, the response was prayer and fasting. When the danger has been spiritual i.e. Chanukah (the Greeks didn't necessarily want to kill the Jews, they wanted to assimilate them), the response has been physical in nature - The response was a call to arms by the Chashmonayim.Basically, when the Jews are in danger we rely on Hashem to ensure our physical survival. However, when it is the Torah being threatened, we (physically) defend the Torah.The Chofetz Chaim therefore asked (this was in regards to the Maskilim) why, when the threat is against the Torah, do we not actually take up arms following this historical precedent.Rav Elchonon answers that ideally this is how we would respond, but for lack of proper leaders, we are unable to do so.Rav Shteinman was simply applying the above to the current situation which the Chareidi world interprets as "shmad".It most certainly was not a call to kill Israeli Government officials.This is what "Divrei Chachomim Tzrichin Limud" means. In our internet soundbite age, every Tom, Dick and Natan, thinks they can understand the words of the Gedolim at face value without considering their context and create a tumult on their blog.ReplyRepliesNatan SlifkinMay 15, 2014 at 5:18 PMAnd what do you think of Rav Kaplan's understanding and elaboration of Rav Steinman's words?Isaac RichterMay 15, 2014 at 5:33 PMR' Natan,I am certain that Rav Kaplan was saying it over in the same context as I explained above. His delight in seeing his son's literal acceptance of his words is easily explained as taking pleasure at a five year old's naive response unclouded by ambiguities. It does not mean he would want his son to go kill anyone.You are surely groaning now and thinking that I'm not only drinking the Kool-Aid, but perhaps swimming in it. I'm fine with that.Natan SlifkinMay 15, 2014 at 5:40 PMI think that you are completely missing the entire point of his conversation with the taxi driver. Did you listen to the recording? Also, what exactly are you trying to say was Rav Elchonon's point? That ideally, we would indeed kill the maskilim, but we lack the authority to do so? And that's supposed to be an okay thing for him to have said?NachumMay 15, 2014 at 5:44 PM"Rav Shteinman was simply applying the above to the current situation which the Chareidi world interprets as "shmad"."Wow, you sound like you agree with that nonsense. Why?"It most certainly was not a call to kill Israeli Government officials."Of course it was. What do you think the Chashmonaim did to the Hellenist Jews? They. Killed. Them."This is what "Divrei Chachomim Tzrichin Limud" means."I got a better one: "Chachamim hizaharu b'divreichem." And Chazal said that *before* an Internet. Kal V'Chomer they'd say it today.Yoel BMay 15, 2014 at 5:58 PMMaking this explicit:Rav Elchanan says that ideally the Torah world should take up arms against Maskilim, but there need to be proper leaders. Rav Steinman extends that to the State of Israel because demanding that Chareidim serve in the Army or learn a trade and work is shmad, and therefore ideally the Torah world should take up arms against the State of Israel, (but there need to be proper leaders.) Rav Kaplan says if there were a general to lead him, he'd take up the sword since Rav Steinman says the government is Haman and Amalek.Rav Kaplan not only tells this to his shiur, it's table talk in his house, and he kisses his son for wanting to kill the government and thinking creatively (no sword... would a hammer work?) about how to do it: "I was so proud of my son, he's looking for a sword to kill all these government ministers..."Then Isaac Reiner says the problem is every "Tom, Dick and Natan" hearing the words of the gedolim out of context. Should we infer from that that Nissan, on the other hand, heard the words and the context and is right to be proud of his son, who heard him correctly?Yoel BMay 15, 2014 at 6:55 PMThank you. Rav Elchanan: "maskilim = Amalek; if we had the right leaders (obviously saying he himself was not such a leader,) good to take up the sword against them;" Rav Steinman: "government ministers = Amalek. Replace them."Rav Kaplan: "Rav Steinman says 'government ministers = Amalek' and we really should take up the sword against them; that's the ideal way to replace them but we just don't have the general to give us the order. I said this to my family at the Shabbat table; my 5 year old son said,'Aba, we don't have a sword in the house, I'm looking... maybe a hammer is also good?' I was very happy, I gave him a kiss... I was so proud of my son, he's looking for a sword to kill all these government ministers..."Such nachas. It'll be interesting to see how the Mir responds.ReplyAnonymousMay 15, 2014 at 5:27 PM*SOME of the ministers, government, media and the leftist elite definitely ARE Amalek no doubt about it. They want to and worked and work to destroy the Torah and Am Yisrael. Its a fact. Not saying that I agree with the "Haredi" approach, but it is known that their are extreme anti-Jewish Behemot who worked and work tirelessly to uproot everything Jewish. This is why they kidnapped Jewish babies and put them in Kibbutzim. This is why they make all sorts of anti-Jewish films. This is why they now promote the Sudanese to take over Israel because they don't want a Jewish majority. And this is why they want to and do cut the budget of the Religious even though their is a lot of $ in reserve- to cut the amount of children that Religious Jews have and to prevent a (real) Jewish majority and Jewish State from becoming. Warren B.ReplyRepliesNachumMay 15, 2014 at 5:55 PMWell, the media and "elite" have no actual power beyond what the government gives them. So let's concentrate on "ministers and government": Can you name ONE- just one- minister or member of the governing coalition who fits your smear? One is all I ask. You've got nearly 70 Knesset members to choose from. I'll even throw in Labor. Maybe even Meretz, and you've got nearly every Jew in the Knesset. One, please.ReplyAnonymousMay 15, 2014 at 5:36 PMThis extreme rhetoric by Hareidi leaders appears likely to lead to tragedy if the aftermath of the rhetoric against Yitzchak Rabin is any guide. It only takes one radical taking such talk seriously to precipitate a tragedy. Should that happen, we'll see how quickly said leaders deny their culpability and seek to cast the blame elsewhere. Meanwhile, calmer voices and more independent thinkers need to take this rabble-rousing to heart and to stop supporting or tolerating those who would inculcate violence. The same can be said of those who advocate violence towards other religions and ethnic groups. Incitement to violence is a crime and should so be treated.Y. AharonReplyDavid JMay 15, 2014 at 5:46 PMCharedi extremism is real. The apologetics on this blog are disturbing.ReplyIsaac RichterMay 15, 2014 at 5:48 PMI understand Rav Elchonon bgeder גדול המחטיאו יותר מן ההורגו.ReplyRafi FarberMay 15, 2014 at 5:57 PMNatan, if some random person were to kidnap your child for three years into his personal army, you would probably want to kill that someone too. What's the difference if someone with "legal authority" to kidnap does it? I don't endorse killing, but that's what it may lead to if we keep worsening the culture of kidnap (draft) and force.ReplyRepliesmoisheleMay 15, 2014 at 6:44 PMWell said.When our refusal to accept or recognize the authority of the state of israel(uganda) as legitimate is clearly expressed, we can explain our feelings of oppression under a mafia, who have no problem murdering people for there purposes. They even have an army with a hierarchy, advanced weapons and an intelligence service at their disposal. We cannot fight back, but we certainly can want to.ReplyIsaac RichterMay 15, 2014 at 5:58 PMThough we frequently find statements to the effect of "so and so is Amalek" the Halacha of killing Amalek only applies to Amalek Zera Eisav. Rabboisai, the Amaratzus is stifling here. This is not apologetics, it is Torah Hashkafa 101. If you want to create a scandal where there is none, by all means. I find the captcha on R' Natan's blog too cumbersome for me to continue in this conversation from my phone.ReplyEzraMay 15, 2014 at 6:09 PMIt's sick.What worries me is this: historically, once a large group is in the grip of such a delusion, it doesn't free itself without some really nasty things unfolding. Take the witch hunts of the 16th - 17th centuries in Europe. It is true that eventually, the fever broke, and they stopped projecting their fears onto those poor women. But not before an estimated 100,000 women were burned at the stake.Right now, even the more sensible Chareidi leaders are trapped by their own rhetoric. They can't back down, so the level of vitriol increases every year. Eventually, I think it will lead to violence.Say a young kanai actually kills a government official. What will happen? Will it break the fever - the way the murder of Rabin brought many DL back to their senses?Or will the inevitable gov't crackdown only further feed t he Chareidi narrative of oppression by the Israeli government?EzraReplyAnonymousMay 15, 2014 at 6:27 PMThis may be an argument against conscripting Haredim. Do we really want thousands of armed soldiers who can be incited to anti-government violence by religious demagogues whom they obey without questioning?
